Interview med Sam Firstenberg 2

I dette særafsnit har vi vores anden samtale med Sam Firstenberg. Denne gang taler vi om Revenge of the Ninja og Ninja 3: The Domination.

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SPEAKER_03 0:31

Hej, lytter, det er Dennis. Her kommer et serafsnit, kan vi jo godt kalde det. Martin og jeg, vi havde jo fornøjelse af at skulle holde et oplæg omkring Canon Films på sefejkon. Og i den forbindelse bliver vi enige med sig selv om skulle ikke til at tage en sluter med Sam Firsten Burg igen. Og det er simpelthen i det interview, I får lov til at høre her. Jeg har letet så meget af interviewet blive, og kun fjernet det allermest nødvendigt, så I får det i, så skal vi kalde det ren en udgave, som vi overhovedet kunne give jer. Vi håber, I sætter pris på det, som altid havde vi en fornøjelse med at tale med Sam. Det må vi jo godt kalde ham nu i fornavn. Og god fornøjelse. Thank you very much, Sam, for giving us some of your precious time. I've been very, very excited to speak to you again, as well as um Martin, of course. Yes. Um I I don't know how how much you remember of our previous conversation. When was it? A few years ago, I think. Yeah, absolutely. But it's uh it's uh something, it's a memory I hold very dearly and that I brag about almost daily. So that you're willing to do it again, uh it's uh nothing short of amazing.

SPEAKER_02 2:07

Yeah, no problem.

SPEAKER_03 2:08

No problem. Thank you. Um in about uh a month or so, uh Martin and I we uh have to give sort of a a talk about uh at a convention about canon films. I think Martin told you a little bit about this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um so we thought it was uh the perfect excuse to ask for some of your precious time again. So some uh some of the things we'd like to ask you, Sam, uh some uh a little about how does or how did a canon movie actually get made? Kind of a step-by-step guide, uh and also how much influence did you have on the scripts and the budgets. We talked a little about it last time when we talked about Avenging Force. Um you talked about how the um the budget for that film was slightly higher than it was for American Ninja, and um and then of course we'd like to talk to you about your two amazing other ninja movies we haven't touched on yet, which are uh Revenge of the Ninja and the absolutely fantastic and insane ninja free The Domination.

SPEAKER_01 3:23

Yeah, wow, wow.

SPEAKER_02 3:25

Um you want me to tell you about Canon? How was Canon working?

SPEAKER_03 3:32

If uh yeah, I'm sure you have a few uh stories, but but yeah, uh a little uh knowledge about uh Canon. Um so uh how would you go about getting uh of a film made and uh how did they um hire you? Were you in on the beginning of a film, or were you like uh I'm uh like a gun for hire? So how did a film get made in Canon?

SPEAKER_02 3:58

Okay, Canon was operating with by two cousins. Yeah, they were cousins. Nah and Golan, your own globes, Israeli cousins. They had a company in Israel and they purchased Canon. Uh, canon was a company in New York, they moved the company to Los Angeles. So basically, they were running the corporation. It was it uh the company, it was a public company, but the two of them were running the company. One of them was more uh uh or let's say only concern with the with the financial side of the company. This is Uorum Globus. Uh he was not involved in uh the creative side. He loved cinema, of course, and he went to see the movies, but he was involved in the financial side. Menachem Golan was more involved, he was a director, producer director, so he was more involved in uh uh the creative side of the company, which means what kind of stories, what kind of movies will be made by the company. Uh the dream, uh, when they purchased Canon and moved the Canon to Hollywood, it was they fulfilled the dream. They all I knew the people before. I was assistant director with the companies that they had before Canon. So this was a dream. So they finally fulfilled the dream to come to Hollywood to make American movies. So this was the dream. Yeah, in the beginning, it was a very small company, and they started. I think this was 1979, 1980. Yeah, yeah. And in the beginning, they tried at the time, you know, everybody, all those independent companies, there were many independent companies in uh Hollywood, not only, of course, Canon. So, except the seven big ones, the seven studios, they were independent companies, Corelco, Crown International, Shapiro Glickenhouse, many companies. Yeah, and and very popular at the time, it was very popular to make uh a horror picture because uh horror pictures are cheap, it's not expensive to make them, and the audience at the time, 79, 19, uh, 80, 81, it was hot. The you know, horror picture came up and down, up and down through the history of Hollywood in popularity. So they tried they tried in the beginning with uh horror pictures. I think uh New Year Evil and uh a few more pictures, a few more movies, not many. And uh, but uh I think that they realize that they are not uh they don't understand the horror pictures so strong, and they moved to action. Yeah, action they understood very well, and I again I said this was Menachem Golan uh that uh was the head, the the brain of the creative. So the way it worked in Canon, for me, all the project that I directed for Canon, I did not initiate. Not my ideas, not my script. It was always always came from Menachem Golan down to me. So uh, you know, I I made one movie uh before I uh started to work with them. It's called One More Chance. I made it at the university when I was going to the university, and I went to them to distribute it, to purchase it, to help me distribution, which they did. After this, at the same time, they they made the movie Enter the Ninja with uh Shokazugi and Franco Nero, and it was successful. Uh for them, it was better, they did better than with the horror picture. Then uh so uh they wanted to do a sequel immediately. I just finished this one more chance. I was around, we knew, I knew them, they knew me. They probably figured out okay, he can he this guy can put together a movie, yeah, beginning, middle, end, 90 minutes. Let's try him. He's not expensive, he's cheap. Yeah, so they gave me the idea. When when uh when they appro uh Menachem Golan approached me or called me to his office, I don't remember. He said, Can you direct for us a sequel which we already had a name, Revenge of the Ninja? And they were already working on the script when I came along. Uh uh Jim Silk was the writer, yeah. Yeah, and he was already working on the script, so it was pretty much, and they had already the idea that they want Shokazugi to be the hero of the movie. So this was the process. They gave me a script and I got involved. Oh, idea, or American Ninja, a little bit different, but but it was always the idea of the company. I was hired as a director, and this will be your salary, this will be my salary, and you know, usually directors get paid in stages preparation, uh, filming, editing, music, and the finish. So that so this is as you say, it's a gun for hire, it's like the old Hollywood system. Yeah, okay. Most of the directors in the golden era of uh Hollywood 50s and 60s, before, but but the Hollywood established the directors were not involved in writing the script or even John Ford, the big John Ford. Yeah, they just hired him, they gave him a script, go and make it, you know. Of course, it's not that simple, but this was the process, more or less. And um, and that's it. That's I I from the moment they gave me uh the assignment to go and make a movie. Basically, they left me alone. And they they the first movie they I said they, it's it's mainly Menachem Golan. Yeah, they were worried a little bit, he was worried a little bit because it was action and they wanted to know if I can deliver on the action. So, and I knew I knew the people, I worked with them, as I told you, I worked with them before as assistant director. So when we uh uh we were filming in Salt Lake City, Utah, Revenge of the Nunia with Shokasugi. So, because I know them, I told the crew, the production crew, first thing we are going to start with action sequence. The first week or the first week and a half, we are going to shoot a big action sequence, no dialogue uh scenes. So, and so we did. We started with a big action sequence, and the editor was in Los Angeles. We were in Salt Lake City, the editor was in the company working, Michael Duffy, the editor. And we you know, we were filming and sending the material back to Los Angeles, and he put together an action sequence pretty quickly, you know, within three, four days, in a rough way. And I believe the minute that they saw that I know how to do it, how to direct an action sequence, they did not bother me anymore. I never heard from the company. I was just uh out there in Salt Lake City directing the movie, you know. There was a team produce, yeah. Of course, there was a producer, cinematographer. And for eight weeks, we were filming for eight weeks, nobody bothered us. I'm sure that they were watching the material in the office because I was in Salt Lake City, but they did not have any complaint. They saw that this is the type of movies that they are making. I did not try to make something which is not canon uh characteristic in the canon style. I I kept myself within the canon style, so they were happy, I guess. And they let me know. The same pattern repeated itself again and again. The minute we embarked on a project, any movie I did for Canon, here is the script or here is the idea, and usually we're out of town, out of Los Angeles, except breaking two electric bugalow. But even then, they did not bother me too much, and just go ahead and you know, I might hear about some budget, you're over budget, little things like this, over schedule, but never uh they never bother me with the creative with the content of the movie. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 12:07

And and when you got an assignment, uh, for instance, like Revenge of the Ninja, um I assume that you got some kind of say. I I know you didn't write the script, uh, Jim Silk did. Um but uh were you allowed to um maybe develop the story with him in a certain direction or yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_02 12:34

I became, by the way, I became very friendly with Jim Silk. Yeah, and we worked together very well. And of course, once the once the main idea, yeah, he was still working on the script when I got in involved. So I of course I met with him and we had meetings, and I see the material that he's writing, and I'm asking for uh uh changes, or my I might have suggestion. I said, Well, listen, Jim, maybe this is not uh dramatic enough, maybe you can bring it up a little bit here. We need another conflict, I need an action sequence here in the middle. So, whatever my input as a as a as a cinema maker, as a movie maker, yeah, came in as a storyteller. Obviously, he wrote the dialogue. I did not write the dialogue, he wrote the dialogue, but together we made changes for this to the structure of this uh overall uh of the movie because I have an idea. I knew exactly how I want to structure the movie in a way of how much action, in balance in how much how many dialogues in, and how and and uh right off from the beginning, let's say for instant, uh Revenge of the Ninja, good example. I knew two things I want to do. Uh because I knew that it was it was a martial art movie, I saw Enter the Ninja, and Shokasugi, I I didn't know anything about martial art movies before this revenge of the ninja. I never seen, I've never seen a Hong Kong movie in my life before. But Shokazugi introduced me to this world of the Hong Kong martial art movies. So uh I knew one, so once I was familiarized myself with the subject, I made two uh two decisions. One is that we are going to make a movie that is, if it's a 90 minutes, 45 minutes action, 45 minutes story, drama. So we are going to deliver at least minimum 45 minutes action, maybe more. And the second, we are not going to make a martial art movie in the style of Hong Kong, but we will mix the action in a so-called Hollywood action with martial art action. So a little bit James Bond, a little bit uh you know uh uh bullet, uh let's say uh little bit westerns together with martial art. So when I was working with uh Jim Silk, and Jim Silk had the same the same idea. Jim Silk worked with Sam Pekinpah before, before his yeah, yeah, but he was a director.

SPEAKER_03 15:08

Not a writer. He was an art director, I believe.

SPEAKER_02 15:13

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he was already we were thinking the same way, you know, because he came from Sam Peckenpah, and and and you know, I came from James Bond and from Sam Beck and Pa and from uh uh Sam Fuller. So we were working, so of course, obviously, American Ninja was really different because when we got the assignment to do American Ninja, there was only an idea. The idea we are going to make a movie about American Ninja. And we I was put together with another writer, Paul De Milke, and we started from scratch the the script from zero to build the script. Of course, he's the writer, but we work together with the producers together. But yeah, but yes, later on, sometimes on the on the set, not everything works exactly because we are low budget, not everything works exactly like it's written in the script. You know, big studio movies, if if it's written A, B, C, D, they change the nature to do it A, B, C, D. They will do whatever it takes to change to fit to the script if it's a Disney movie. But we in a low budget, we have to change the script, we have to adapt ourselves to the location. So sometimes we see location, something doesn't work, we have to so we have to change the script according to the location, but those are usually minute changes, not big changes. Action might action is adapted to the location as we find the location. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:42

And that that that was actually the next thing I wanted to ask you because one of the things you told us last time was how you used the environment. We talked about um the beggar's bar in American Ninja 2, and uh you wanted to do like this saloon brawl. Um so when Jim Silk wrote this script and you worked on the structure with him, and and Steve Lambert, of course, as your stunt coordinator and your main stunt guy, um when you came to a location and saw we can do this and this, um did that affect the script, or was that like you said a minute thing?

SPEAKER_02 17:29

The approach, you know, in a big studio movie, the action and the drama are directed by two different directors. There is an action, you know, second unit director and a second unit totally totally separated from the main unit. So maybe they meet sometimes for meeting, or but they don't see each other. So it's a different story. But in the low budget, we don't have a second unit director. I direct everything. We have a stand coordinator, we have a fight choreographer. Uh I I need people to help me to put the action together. Now, when we come to low, now we are writing the script in the room and we have all kinds of fantasies in the script, but when we come to the location, Salt Lake City, Phoenix, Arizona, it doesn't always fit the script. Or we might find something more exciting that we wrote. Some kind of a factory, building, three stories, uh something that ignites the fantasy for action sequence, and mainly for acting, because most of the dialogue sequence usually are people talking and walking in the in in the outdoor, or they are talking, you know, talking inside. And this is easy. Either we find the location or we build the location. Uh Ninja Tree Denomination, we build the house, her house. Uh yeah, because it was special effect house, uh, juggling and yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But uh uh, but uh uh action has to be adapted to the location. So there is location. We come to locate to we come to wherever we are going to film the movie, uh four or five weeks before the filming in advance. Johannesburg, Phoenix, doesn't matter where Jakarta, wherever we are, and I walk around, we were looking for location. Once we find location, I go there with the stand coordinator, with a fight choreographer, and with a cinematographer, of course, and we start to look. I always look for interesting locations, something that will help to create exciting action, you know, because just one flat field, there is not much to do there. So you need stop, you need a lake, you need a hill, up, down, trees, uh, abandoned, empty factory, something interesting. Yeah, and and then we we go there with the location. So we know that the action, we know the drama that will have has to happen in this location. The drama, the hero, you know, Shokazugi has to meet Lucinda in an empty in a building, in an empty building. So we found the building that was in the middle of of the destruction, of demolition, so we could use it, etc. So once we are there, we start to work, we start to run ideas. Uh in avenging force, we were on a ship, yeah, inside the ship, outside the ship, on the cranes, on top of the cranes. And I encourage the people to work with me to come up with crazy ideas, come up with ideas. What can we use here in this location? Think about it, come back to me. And then maybe I don't see them for four or five days. They come back to me. The director is busy with preparing others. The director is very busy all the time, and they come back to me and they say, Okay, here's what we have, and this, and so and so. Why don't he go up, he will fall, this guy will fall into the water, yeah, whatever the whatever idea stunt and action pieces they put together. And then we we have a storyboard. We bring a storyboard artist and we build a storyboard for this uh action. Uh martial art hand-to-hand fights are a little bit easier because then you need you need the space to show how good they are in martial art. So you don't need so many uh elements, environment. Uh and that that that's so that's basically how how it is built. Uh eventually that they go and make rehearsals without me, the stunt team, you know, because there are many people, five, six, eight people sometimes. They go and they make uh the rehearsals with the fight choreographer, with the stunt uh uh uh uh coordinator. And then one day we have a rehearsal. They show me the fight, the or the action sequence, and I can make uh more or more ideas, more. uh few things which i think that are they they don't work for the same or a few things which are missing can we add this can we add this element can we change this element and together we're we are working and I was lucky that usually the the the the people that I work with the the stand coordinators and the fight choreographer they were thinking like me this we had the same idea we always wanted to do martial art together with Hollywood action so-called Hollywood action so we had a little bit tom cruise and we have a little bit uh chuck norris together yeah the poor Chuck Norris that's why he came to my mind today yeah um I uh yesterday I uh uh resaw Ninja Free the Domination with your great audio commentary and um you had a certain expression you said something about um when making a movie the canon look what can you explain what the canon look is uh this is this is something that I learned in the internet this is something that I learned in the internet lately in the last 10 years yeah but the but canon two two separate things canon had a style canon had a style of movies it was not canon only you know it it was the same style for all those mov all the company that I mentioned Corelko Shapiro Glickenhouse Crown International all of them big action big explosions helicopter fall falling from the skies uh car chases so uh the idea and and this comes from the exploitation action movies of the 70s you know uh one one decade earlier and and so the the this was the canon canon movies always had this style and and when you talk about people they say always when we see this blue canon thing I knew that I'm going to get some uh uh you know some girls I'm going to get some explosions yeah I'm going to get uh a lot of blood big uh guns and uh uh you know missing uh missing in action yeah death wish they all had the same the same style of movie making this was a case the reason they had the same style because the head of the company Menachem Golan always got involved in the editing later you know he was involved in creating the movie the idea and they hired directors who fell into this Josito Sam Furstenberg you know so the directors that they hire understood what they are looking for. Okay so this was one thing later on in the last 10 or 15 years I started to to realize in the conversation in the internet people are talking about the canon look so it's not something that I I realize other fans they started to and and they decided the canon uh fan decided there there is something which is called the canon look you know on Facebook there are a couple of groups dedicated only to canon movies and there are uh uh people who are crazy about canon look and you are wearing the shirt of canon with the canon logo that became right that became synonymous with this kind of style of of uh movie making and they are calling it today the canon look so I adapted I'm also using this term the canon look but I did not invent it it's it's it's something that uh circulates in the internet in the social medias yeah um something uh Martin and I really wanted to ask you because you are uh first of all you're one of our favorite directors and you're something of an action movie expert what ingredients do you need for a good or maybe even perfect action film okay here is my my opinion uh an action movie has an action has a specific audience usually it's a male men are 90% of the audience there are women who like uh uh uh action but not many most of them young male it starts action crowd starts from the 12 11 and goes all the way I don't know to to the 62 from 12 to 62 so this is the this is the audience target audience now they ex if you are trying to sell them an action movie there is a specific certain expectation from this crowd you cannot try to it's it's not fair let's say uh to try to sell an action movie to an action crowd and there are going to be only one action sequence that's not why they come they pay money to see fights to see blood to see uh exciting movement and exciting uh situation on the screen uh including chases fighting explosions uh whatever is in the language in the cinematic language is considered action and and uh so this is first thing in mind if I'm a directing action movie I am addressing this crowd I'm not trying to be artistic I'm not trying to be avant-garde I'm not trying to do uh Bergman you know I know what I'm doing I know I know what I have to do so number one I believe in action movie and as I learned from of course from uh James Bond you start right away on a big action sequence you don't have to explain nothing don't no one word no exposition nothing boom credit over you're in an action sequence something happened it's it might be a chase it might be a fight hand to hand combat it might be a combination and and something something so this it first of all it telegraphs it gives the message to the crowd you are in the right movie you came to the right movie we are starting with action uh the the Fast and the Furious all this all of all those action moves everything every Schwarzenegger movie every Van Damme movie they're all the same yeah and and uh so you start with a big action sequence to get the people involved hopefully it's also connected to the story it shows you where where the story is going that some kind of a of a of a uh dramatic point dramatic conflict that when this one sequence is over the audience know oh we have now a problem that the hero is going to solve from this point on to the end of the movie the hero is going to resolve this problem to solve now through the action movie I believe you need at least three big action sequences of course in the middle in the beginning at the end the resolution action sequence and in the middle another big action move action sequence somewhere in the middle 45 minutes into the movie 50 minutes and there are some additional another three or four uh small action movies action sequences again when I say action it can be a hand-to-hand combat it can be a car chase it can be food chase uh something which is uh not a dialogue not two people standing and and uh talking and uh and uh but rather cinematic excitement so that this is my belief uh I did not invent it obviously I saw when I was a kid I saw so many westerns and the westerns are action movies so when you see high noon or you see whatever the searchers any other western classic western is full of action and it always starts with a big sequence and action sequence and it ends up with a big action sequence and uh etc so this is my opinion to it now one more thing an action sequence let's say it's a seven minute eight minute big one is a 12 minute let's say 12 10 minutes within this action sequence there should be a little story a little drama just two cars chasing each other for no purpose and nothing happened they just were driving and driving and driving it's not exciting it's not compelling the audience doesn't get involved so within the action sequence there needs to be a drama there is a uh hero there is a villain uh the hero is chasing the villain the other way around the villain the hero is running away from the villain and now there are ups and downs he's losing he's one guy is over top of the guy and but then it changes it can be the same goes for a fight you know it cannot be a a fight sequence that the hero just beats the villain all the time is boring it's nothing it's not interesting so you need the drama you need a little story beginning and middle and end to this sequence it's a little story fantastic um I'm pretty sure yeah I have one one more um it's uh no anyway actually actually you just mentioned our two favorite western movies like the searchers and high noon yes we have been talking about the searchers a lot so that's really great because the searchers is a basic to many it's a dramatic structure that goes for many many movies the search for somebody who got disappeared including a revenge together so it's one of the you know people say there are only seven stories in the in the world in the drama only seven structures which are classic you know the the revenge story the whatever the Justice story you know Meltas Falcon uh you know bodies buddy buddy same thing uh uh uh you know avenging force you know two friends one gets here the other one has to revenge the yeah the death of the so yeah you're right but uh but the uh American ninja is uh is Hainoon the hero that does not want to get involved but there is no choice because his values his uh ethic draws him into the action because he's looking for justice he has no choice because of his character his inner character his inner value as drawing him to look for justice same thing American ninja same basic idea yeah I and I I know I'm I'm repeating myself from the last time we spoke but one of the things I really like about um uh American Ninja and uh and the um Joe Armstrong character from the first American Ninja and to the second as you say in the first one he's the reluctant hero he gets dragged into the situation but in the second one he and uh Curtis Jackson the great late great Steve James they choose to go into the action it's a great development for the character yeah yeah yeah yeah a different structure different dramatic structure it's a different it's a it's a dramatic structure which is uh searching for the truth looking peeling up and how do we find the the truth at the end it's not a revenge story it's not uh it's a different it's a mission we have a mission we have to uh uh accomplish the mission yeah and and one of the things we also spoke about with uh American Ninja and American Ninja 2 was um the um the amount of action from the beginning in the second American Ninja yeah uh it takes a lot less time for the first uh fisticuffs to appear uh in the first one you you actually you prolong uh the intro a little bit then it starts and then it's more or less through the whole movie but in the second one i i believe i counted that within 10 minutes we'd had the first two fight scenes oh yeah wonderful better but but you know then it's everybody is saying that the opening of uh ninja three the domination is the biggest of all of them it's a real non-stop action for I think 12 minutes and we will most certainly get back to that um one thing i i remember you you told us the last time um uh about uh your first uh job as an action director menachem asked you can you direct action you said of course i can and you had show kousugi on set who knew action you had steve lambert on set who knew action and you you've mentioned uh Michael Duffy a couple of times and I was just wondering how in your opinion how important is the editor in helping you shape this action story tremendously I I I I I don't have enough word to explain how how important is the editor to put together an action sequence you know action is pure cinema no talking there is no word you have to go back to Charlie Chaplin you have to express an idea with the cinematic images only yeah there is no nobody talks to each other nobody can explain to the audience you know in dialogue when two people talk they really talk to the audience they don't talk to each other they expect they they move information to the audience but here in an action sequence the director stands in a situation that he has to talk with the audience with no dialogue no words only with images so it goes back to pure cinema the editor has to understand the same thing has to think exactly the same uh way like the director and the director has to bring to bring the the raw material for to the editor so he can put it together and it's very important the timing I learned so much Michael Duffy was an experienced editor when I started so I learned from him so much uh even I'll give you a small example in in editing action sequences within a small section there is a setup and payoff yeah there is it's very important to show some let's say somebody who is going to be killed is going to get an arrow in in in the neck yeah 20 minutes from now 20 seconds I'm sorry 20 seconds from now you have to set it up okay so now you start to build the victim before you even as an audience you know who he is why would why do you show it to me you build you build anticipation then you see the whatever the villain with the arrow then you see him again he is not suspicious we as an audience we already know that's how you build tension that's how you build the the excitement we know something he doesn't know because of the editing if he doesn't show him he doesn't work so there are many many little tricks and many ways to put together action of course you have to know how to edit also dialogue sequence with reaction and how people react to the dialogue etc or just regular scenes uh in between uh scenes but action is very important i i i learned a lot from Michael Duffy about uh how to uh direct the action and how to make sure that all the material yeah is is filmed is in the camera to come to the editing room so he will be able to put it together in an exciting way very important yeah one of the things we I believe we wanted to ask you last time that I I don't believe we we got to do well but uh anyway we'll just ask you again if you already answered it but yeah we were wondering if there were any canon movies you were attached to that were for some reason or another never produced yes absolutely yeah okay when I when when when when we finished American Ninja in the Philippines we came back to the office and we were working I think it was I think it was uh American Ninja but anyway one of the movies we came back to the office and we I'm working in the in the editing with the editor second day somebody approached me in the in the corridor uh uh producer I forgot his name you might remember and he says I uh you know uh Menachem Golan asked me to give you a script he gave me a script bloodsport is the name of the script uh okay Lan Su I think is the yeah I think was Lancel I think was the producer I took the script I read it I didn't like the script at all fair enough I'll tell you why because the 90% of the script is in one location in one place so I thought well I just finished this big movie with 40 50 different locations with hundreds of extras thousands of extras I don't know with with the trucks and trains and helicopter what what am I I don't want to do a movie in one room like I don't think it's exciting so I came back next day I met with him with Lance I said I said I I really don't want I don't think it's a good movie I don't want to do it okay I moved on uh I I think maybe to do Avenging for us I don't remember it's another movie eventually they the the rest is historic they made blood sport the the company really didn't uh when I was approached uh Van Damme was not connected to it it was only a script there was no Van Dam later a few months later they put it together with Van Dam they filmed the movie they edited it and you know the company Menachem Golan Yorum Globus whoever the two people they did not like the movie at all and they did not distribute it for two years it was in the sitting in the company for two years and you know Van Damme was driving them crazy and probably eventually he brought in Sheldon Ledic to fix the with Michael Duffy Michael Duffy together with Sheldon and they changed a little bit the the structure of the movie but for two years after the filming they did not distribute the movie they did not believe in it. Once it opened the rest is history it was one of the biggest movies ever for canon and for Fandam and the other movie I did not uh direct was I think uh uh behind the enemy line number three okay talking about Chuck Norris uh today we we we learned that he passed away today so uh I met with Chuck a few times and uh Aaron was the stunt coordinator Aaron Norris yeah and I met with him a few times eventually I did not the uh it was to go back to the Philippine and eventually I did not I it didn't work out not not because not relationships I it didn't work out for me for timing and uh whatever and uh they didn't know what to do the company so they eventually they gave it to Aaron Norris to direct and he directed it uh there was a terrible accident you know in the Philippines the helicopter fell down and a few people died and so this those were two canon figure pictures I did not direct Bloodsport and and uh missing I think missing in action number missing in action missing action three I believe yeah this this was missing in action not behind any line missing in action number three yeah but but we knew what you meant so yeah um I I just I know I noticed you mentioned Michael Duffy again well um was he was he like an a go-to guy to help edit because I've noticed also he appears uh as an uncredited editor on several film projects was he a man they also brought in when a project was um had gone a bit sideways and they tried to get it back on track i you you can say that Michael Duffy was always in the building always okay okay he he first of all he edited all the action movies and we moved later from canon to to global also yeah uh that uh Delta Force number three yeah I I directed with Michael Duffy so he was with us all the time he was in canon all the time and he was editing movie but in between if they have a trouble with the movie that didn't work okay bring me bring in Michael Duffy and yes but he was there all the he was like the canon man he was in canon all the time later he moved on to global later he moved on to uh new image he worked a lot for new image as well yeah from millennium and new image uh he passed away two years ago but I think two or three years ago yeah sadly Michael Duffy yeah yeah yeah but he was a he was an excellent editor an excellent excellent editor with a good good sense to music because he started when he was young he started as a music editor oh really so he had an excellent sense to how to to uh uh put music together with action. Excellent sense.

SPEAKER_03 44:04

Yeah. Fantastic. We're getting smarter by the minute. I have had never heard or read any place that you were potentially involved with Bloodsport. So that's an amazing piece of news for me.

SPEAKER_02 44:23

But only for one or two days. That's it. I didn't like the script. No, the funny, the ironic thing that I didn't like the script and then it was such a huge hit. It's been a big hit.

SPEAKER_03 44:34

Yeah. But but but you know actually I I I kind of get it that you'd you'd had this you you keep mentioning James Bond. You'd had this Bond-like film with American Ninja lots of locations and gadgets and things.

SPEAKER_02 44:50

I love David Lean I love uh Kurosawa big movies I love big movies um but you know eventually eventually I directed a movie with David Bradley which is called American Samurai which is not too different not too different from Bloodsport but no that's a tournament movie as well uh both Martin and I saw that within the last you uh were kind enough to share a YouTube link with your director's card yeah yeah it's anybody wants to see it it's in my youtube channel for free they can go and see uh uh uh American Samurai with David Bradley yeah when I was young uh I I worked at a store and Americ uh American Samurai was always on the shelf uh and I always took it home with me uh in the night and and and and put it back in the in the morning because no one else picked it uh so it's always for free but it's one of my favorite movies uh also I like yeah I also I love Mike the Caskas in it I think he's uh wonderful yeah yeah he's so wonderful in it yeah yeah good villain he was a very good villain yeah yeah he's such a good villain yeah I just lost you for a second the final uh kind of open question before we we start to narrow it down to the individual films and would you say Sam Furstenberg that you are at least partially responsible for the 80s ninja craze in in retrospect you now we can look back when we were there when we were working in the 80s we didn't know what we were doing we didn't understand what's happening around us it was a it was a crazy time in the in in the world of independent genre movies Bobby Hooper uh Albert Payon uh uh Steve Carver yeah Sheldon Ledge Josito all we were all crazy we didn't know we are doing we all low budget we are making low budget movies for small independent companies we didn't understand what we are making obviously you have to look at historically you look to look it back now today we are 35 years later from American Ninja 40 years away from uh Revenge of the Ninja so now when you look uh on the different careers of those different directors that I mentioned it so happened that Sam Persenberg was in charge of the ninja this was his field ninjas yeah uh so out of the four ninja movies that we mentioned Revenge of the Ninja Ninja 3 the domination American Ninja number one American Ninja number two established this genre within the Western audience with the world audience because in Japan it was everybody knew ninjas in Japan in the 60s in the 50s you know way before but it was local it was in Japan and in Hong Kong movies you saw ninjas sometimes here and there integrated into the Hong Kong movies but not as a major not as heroes not as a major subject but just as villains here and there integrated and even in the octagon I think you see a ninja but but to to to to uh to establish this idea that a ninja can be a hero first of all it's in a it's an idea of Mike Stone it's not my idea Mike Stone came up with this idea Mike Stone is a famous martial artist and you can see him in Ninja 3 the domain in uh American Ninja number two yeah uh he's the villain ninja and he came up to canon with this idea but he had this idea even years before he told me that why don't we take the ninja as a hero of a movie as the main character of a movie uh canon had moved it and and so was uh the fate was that it fell into my hand to execute it uh so I was an instrumental so yes today people say oh Sam Fursenberg he's responsible for the uh the popularity of the ninja movies of the non-Japanese ninja movies of the 80s at the beginning of the 90s and and today it became a a a slice of the pie of the history of uh the cinema of genre movies action movies of Hollywood correct but also the ninjas wasn't was not just uh the regular kind of ninja it was also kind of ninjas like the ninja turtles but also when you watch GI Joe there was these ninjas like Storm Shadow or Snake Eyes and ninjas were expanding it's all of it yeah so so you you mentioned that the biggest movie was the ninja turtles yeah but they happened because we did the yeah of course yeah the Keno Ninja movies and it became popular popular with the kids with the young people and somebody came with a genius idea of ninja turtles and this was the top of the top this was already the pinnacle of the ninja craze absolutely absolutely now the the next question Sam is one that we wanted to ask you last time but we kind of ran out of time but you've mentioned several times that you really like westerns would you have liked i I know you have um western influences in your films and and kind of uh little Western signatures uh not at least in Ninja 3 the domination when Yamada walks into the sunset after the uh final action climax but would you have liked to have directed uh straight on Western and what kind of a western movie would you have liked to have directed you see the the desire to do this kind of movie comes from my childhood it's not something that I consciously when I grew up 50s 60s uh as a kid I saw the the biggest amount of movies that I saw of course all of them were most of them were Hollywood movies were western and gangster urban gangster movies this was the main uh there were also world war two movies yeah you know the style of uh style of uh river quine bridge over the river quine uh but there were a few American movies uh uh uh uh right after the war it was the 50s but mainly we saw gangster movies and and uh western the most so I'm influenced by the very influenced as as a kid this influenced me this visual those visuals of either the wild west the open field and the beautiful mountains and the and the forces the the main forces the villain the the the the heroes and the villain the big groups a lot of moving uh on horses uh action uh attracted me as a kid ignited my imagination and the same thing the streets the urban the little uh uh all those little alleys and those little streets that usually go together with gangster movies that uh uh also ignited my imagination so that's I so this those two genres I really like very much I just uh I just watched not long uh two days ago three days ago Paradise Alley uh Stallone directed has the same feeling yeah uh and uh and uh and uh uh so but by the time I got to direct movies in the 80s those Drew genres were dead already yeah I mean here and there you saw a western made or here and there you saw a gangster movie made but but it was it was over I was assistant director in uh the gangster movie the movie Lep two movie uh Lepke and Four Deuces that uh they uh Menachem Golan produced before they had canon yeah uh with Tony Curtis uh uh uh Lepke with Tony Curtis is the gangster movies of the 30s and four does uh four deuces with Jack Palance also gang but I was uh assistant you know so I had a chance to work on him never had a chance to work in a western but yeah I would like I would love to to go back but basically it's the same thing you know basically the vista is different the the the scenery is different the cliches are different but basically you do you direct a ninja movie urban in the streets in the building going up to the roof it's kind of similar similar to either gangster movie or western movies so yeah I would love to do I would have loved to do the one of the two one of those two direct one of those two genres but it didn't happen but was not too far from that no no absolutely I I get it um so your your western influences even were even yeah even the take the opening of ninja three the domination because this the desert the lone the the lone uh the the villain the ninja comes with the car and he stops and he climbs to the mountain it has this feeling of western absolutely and and we talked also we talked about it in American Ninja 2 uh when Mike Stone and Michael Dudikoff have their final confrontation at you had this shot where you were behind like with the gun hand classic question at classic question so and the and the final sequence between uh Mark de Coscos and David Bradley it's pure Western it's pure western you can imagine the here the the ending uh of most of Rio Bravo or any other movie the villain the street of the little town one side the good guy one side the bad guy they walk to each other the question who will who will kill who yeah so is it the same ending Mark the Costcos David Bradley they're together they're standing looking at each other so your Western influences they were like the John Ford and Howard Hawkes Henry Hathaway those classic western directors absolutely I love those kind of movies and I love the work of those directors that you mentioned John Ford Howard Hawkes definitely definitely uh listen I watched a lot I I told you I did not see uh any uh Hong Kong movie but before I started to direct I watched a lot of uh samurai movies Akira Kurosaun yeah yeah seven samurai ujimbu yeah uh the fortress all the samurai movies I love the samurai movies which are western in a different way yeah yeah yeah it is but but uh was there a movie you wanted to do but nobody accepted the script or the idea or no did you have something I I will tell you uh the first movie that I directed long uh I I directed short movies I wrote one more chance I wrote the script yeah and I already understood that I'm not a good writer writing is this is a special art yeah writing as I mentioned writing the the important thing about writing is writing dialogue just to structure a movie many people can structure a movie but to write interesting dialogue a dialogue which is because the trick of dialogue in a movie is that you have two people talking to each other three people but they really passing information they don't talk to each other they they're passing information to but it has to be clever it has to be uh interesting dialogue you know everybody can write a dialogue but how do you write intriguing dialogue how do you write uh uh uh a dialogue that uh Quintin Tarantino that's his uh that's his genius that's his talent you know uh Tarantino his signature yeah so uh so yeah so no I I I I uh you know I had an idea for American Ninja number two they didn't like the idea they wanted us to go to the to the to the South Africa to shoot in the South so I had a few ideas here and there but nothing like uh a movie that I really need to make and I this idea I tried a few projects here and there not I I was not successful but uh nothing uh I'm not this type of uh as we mentioned I'm the type of director film director that I'm getting an assignment and my job yeah is to make sure that it's exciting on the screen it's compelling on the screen it's clear it's clear and the drama works on the screen it's there is an excitement on the screen and sometimes the writer doesn't know how to do it the writer knows how to write he doesn't know how to put it on the screen that it will be exciting and uh so it's a it's a collaboration uh I directed a movie that now we are busy we uh with uh restoring with uh Steve James yeah yeah it's a subject that I it's a subject that has to do with racial discrimination in the South I didn't grow up there the writer did the man who wrote the script he was there his childhood was in the South American South with discrimination and with injustice my job and I talked with him a lot during the filming my job is was to take his vision his idea and put it on a big screen that it will be clear what he wanted to say and uh listen a good good orchestra contractor a good orchestra conductor cannot write Mozart not necessarily he takes Mozart and he expresses it with the orchestra he knows how to put it together there are better conductors there are there are conductors who are expert on malher and there are conductors who are expert on uh uh baroque uh okay they know how to take the music and to so same thing that most of directors are like most of directors are like this of course they're here and there are geniuses you know we mentioned there is a Tarantino it's his idea he's writing the dialogue uh you know Avatar same thing it's one genius man but uh this is right to every art or to every craft you have people who are geniuses they know how to do everything and they are good at it soft in this okay it's okay now two seconds with his board he has his board when he can touch everything on Bluetooth connected U2 connected disconnected I have no idea what happened but um yeah just had to remove the echo anyway I had a quick question Sam about the actor John LaMotta you uh used him in quite a few of your films including your first film was he kind of a like a good luck charm for you okay when when uh as I told you I was a student I I I was a student film uh BA M A two times I went to school two times to universities and uh in between I was the assistant director five years between the what we call in America the undergraduate and graduate uh BA and MA and uh uh so I I made few I directed few uh short movies but then when I came to school uh to do the master degree I decided that I'm going to uh uh to make a full movie 90 minutes I wrote a script I decided while I'm in school two and a half years I'm going to make a movie and uh I I had a friend uh uh an actor his name is Michael Patacci uh Michael Pataki was a secondary character in many movies and one time in the beginning of my career he directed a movie it's called the Eyes of Dr. Cheney or uh something the House of Doom or Mansion of Doom something like this a horror picture low budget Charlie Bend uh uh produced and uh the uh so Michael Pataki directed it the cameraman was uh Andrew Davis who became director later Andrew Davis yeah and I was the grip in this movie so this was in the beginning of our way the beginning of Andy Davis Andrew Davis the beginning of me and uh so when I wrote the script of One More Chance the only actor I knew in Hollywood was Michael Pataki that might fit into this part I went to his house I talked with Michael I gave him the script and Michael told me listen this this character is not me but I have an actor who knows how to do this character. He's perfect at this his name is Johnny Lamatta he introduced me to Johnny Lamata Johnny Lamatta was the I think cousin of Jack Lamatta the fighter the boxer Jack LaMatta yeah they were family and and he introduced me to Johnny Lamata now this movie one more chance we were filmed for one and a half years because we were filming only in the weekend sun Saturday Sunday Saturday Sunday we didn't have any money nothing nothing nothing it was all like partisans underground movie but Johnny was loyal you know he could have left me any any one and a half years to be loyal and to stay with no money no payment nothing there was no money but Johnny was became a friend Johnny Lamata and he stayed with us all the way to the end of the movie which was I I appreciated a lot that for no no salary no money and then when we finished he became he got the job in he was in the television series elf for a few years so I so you're a lot you're right I felt loyal to Johnny Lamata and I felt that I need him in every movie I don't know why a good charm and and I tried to use him in every movie that uh I I was trying to find a part for uh Johnny Lamata to to do the movie so it was a kind of almost like a running joke or something even uh years later I made a movie with Sean uh with uh uh the uh motel blue many years later uh Sean Young Johnny Lamatta he was he was already much older he came in as a police officer something like this yeah you're right amazing so this was Johnny Lamatta yeah it was just you know Johnny Johnny was a theater actor musical a beautiful voice and he played the piano so beautiful so he was a more he was more theater actor until he got the the television show but he did a lot of theater in New York he's from New York he was from New York and and then in Los Angeles he did a lot of theater in Los Angeles yeah it was just you know one of these things I just started noticing hey he's uh also because I just watched Revenge of the Ninja a Ninja Breeze back to back I said hey there he is again and I of obviously we remember him from American Ninja so it and I was American is with a jeep and exactly um amazing but let's uh let's get down to uh revenge of the ninja business yeah um

SPEAKER_03 1:06:00

One of the things I asked you about last time when we talked about uh Avenging Force was uh how the uh the violence felt and it it it went really hard. And the intro in the the opening action sequence in Revenge of the Ninja is possibly the most brutal thing you've ever committed to film. Um it's relentless, it's highly exciting but incredibly uh violent. How did this intro, this um introduction to this kind of action, did that influence the rest of the action in this movie?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:46

Definitely, you know, what when I looked at the way I perceived action movies in my mind, as I told you, we saw so many, I saw so many movies in my childhood, even the seven voyage of Sinbad the Sailor. Any movie, any action adventure movie that you can think of, Tarozan, uh so those movies uh they adhere to one idea. Going to the movie, to a violent movie, to movie of a lot of violence, in my opinion, and many other people, I I read psychologists and etc., it's a release valve. It's not necessarily people who go and see movies with a lot of uh violence and blood, they don't go home and kill somebody. That's not correct, that's not true. It's a release valve. You release your inner aggression by going to the movies, by watching these kind of movies. So, male with a lot of testosterone, they go to the movie, and instead of going out to the street and start to fight with somebody, they go and see a violent uh action movie, or or they go back to the theater, they go to a Shakespearean movie with has a lot of blood, you know, a Shakespearean play. Uh way back there in uh Shakespearean time. They had a lot of uh blood on the stage with Shakespearean. So, so this was in my mind, this was consciously made. So, this audience, this movie, we have to set up the tone. This is not going to be, this is not uh, you know, Shakespearean love. This is not, you know, this is not Hamnet. We are not going to have little dialogue field, people in the field and dialogue and about emotion and talking about their uh emotional problem. We are going to show you a lot of action. So and Shokasugi, luckily enough, Shokasugi had the same way of thinking like me. We were together in the same. Now, the opening of Revenge of the Ninja was not filmed in uh Salt Lake City, in uh in Salt Lake City. When we fin it was not in the original script, this opening sequence. When we finished the entire movie and we put it together in the editing room, I felt, and Shokasugi felt, that the opening is not strong enough. We are not opening the right way, the movie, and we needed a little bit history to tell his history in Japan before he comes to America. So, luckily, the producer Menachem Golan agreed with us because you know, producer has to put more money if you are coming to the producer and tell him, listen, I need to film a little bit more. So uh, but Menachem Golan was clever enough, and he understands the genre, this genre of movies uh so well that he agreed, and they gave us another week of filming. This opening sequence in the Japanese garden, yeah, and the the little fight with the came Kazugi in the park, he's fighting the little kids. This was addition, we added it, and uh, we were missing a couple of uh entrances into the building, like Kit Vaitali arrived to the building and going up. It was not clear, so within this week we did all of this, but uh yes, that's exactly so it goes the other way. After the whole movie was finished, then we should then we filmed the opening. Yeah, um but so we stayed within the character of the opening with Shurik and it was even more violent, but we had to cut it down. Not you, you know, here in America we have to go, or at the time, I don't know how it is today. There was a special committee that watched the movie, and they give you R, X, and yeah. So few things that they took out of this sequence in the opening. Not everything is in.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:39

Um and your story here brings me to um I I wrote down one of your quotes from the amazing audio commentary. You said something along the lines uh send in the rush, the rushes, the studio get it gets excited, and you get more money. And I I'm guessing that's pretty much what what happened here. You saw you you needed something, and what you had was pretty good, but you could make the whole thing even better.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:08

Yeah, yeah, but it was a you know, it was a general agreement, it's not not only one man. I I I I I felt so Shokazugi, the writer Jim Silk felt so every we everybody felt that we are not opening the movie. It's a good movie, but we need strong opening that will grab the audience's attention right away from the beginning, you know, so they know where they are sitting and they know where we are going now. And it's a telegram, telegram that what is coming in the rest of the movie, what you're going to see, and and definitely the the final fight on the roof matches the opening. You know, you know that something this is going to be like good, good fight at the end on the roofs of the buildings.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:52

And amazing fight sequence on the roof. I love it. Absolutely amazing.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:59

And even there, we had to cut out. There were more. There was more stuff that we had to cut out. There was a decapitation. There is a sequence with the head crawling, and they they didn't allow it.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:14

But but you did actually film it. Yeah, yeah, it's in the material.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:18

There are there are a few uh uh photographs now in the internet. You can see the decapitated guy. Like there are a few pictures that people found, and they it's all over the internet, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:31

Um I'm just gonna go uh a little sideways here, but just one of the things I noticed about Revenge of the Ninja and Ninja Free, because we talked about American Ninja last time. The action in your first two ninja films seems it goes a lot harder and it's bloodier. I'm guessing, Sam, that was a conscious decision compared to when you made the American Ninja films that they were more accessible, maybe.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:07

Yeah, you're right. When when we suddenly when we came up with this idea, American ninja, because before we we dealt with the Japanese mythology, the ninja, the the secretive ninja, the evil ninja. Yeah, you know, because in the in the Japanese mythology, the ninja characters are villains, are not heroes, they are despicable. The samurai is the honorable fighter, the ninja is the despicable, you know, they're uh uh assassin for hire. Yeah, so this is within the uh Japanese mythology. So we we try to say this in the same area, so it's bloodier and the action is more sinister and the whole thing. Yeah, suddenly there was this crazy idea that the ninja is an American ninja, yeah, he's not a Japanese ninja, and and to to flow with this idea, he cannot be this this American ninja, which is more like John Wayne, he cannot be that uh brutal, he has to be a little bit different. So the whole tone of the movie is a little bit lighter, it's more a little bit more comic, comical. And there is a love story, so you have to accommodate prior to this. We didn't have this love romantic story. Now we have a romantic story, and so the whole thing got a little bit uh lighter, uh lighter tone. American Ninja 2 is even more comical, more lighter. So you don't see the the blood so much, and you don't see cutting of limbs and things like this. Less less of this and and and more fun, if we can say fun action, fun violence. Yes, you're right, absolutely right.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:00

But anyway, we have this amazing introduction that takes place in Japan, filmed in California in a Japanese garden. Um I love that you can uh it feels different than the rest of the movie, it's almost mythological, and I'm guessing that was uh uh a choice as well. That we're we get this sense that we're in this action fantasy, and Japan is this mythological place that's just rampant with ninjas, yes, and that's why he has to go with Other Roberts to Los Angeles.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:42

So it's a little bit fantasy, it's a lot of influence of Shokazugi, which he is Japanese, he he knows better than me. Uh there is a fantasy the way we perceive Japan, and over there there is a titanic fight between clans of ninja. So we cannot have in the streets in America, in Salt Lake City, 40 ninjas and 40 ninjas, but in Japan, easy, you know, that's yeah, it goes with the it goes with the idea that we are in Japan, that's the the the the birthplace of the ninja, and uh ninja is very unique to Japan. It's only it's a certain style that you don't find in the other uh countries, not in Hong Kong, not in China, not in uh only in Japan. It's a specific so yes, uh as I said, and the music helps a lot, you know. Uh he wrote excellent music for this sequence, uh and and everything works so that we are you're opening in Japan. Uh and again, as I said, filming-wise, it was the end, but but when you come and see the movie, you don't know what was Revenge of the Ninja. Maybe this movie will happen. The entire movie is in Japan, but then we have a switch, then it moves to America, different world, different, but you cannot escape your uh whatever you cannot escape your uh destiny, and the ninjas are uh following you to America, but we open big with two big clans of uh ninjas in some kind of city in Japan or maybe village in Japan. It's it's not uh specified.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:23

No, but it it's it's a great way also to to showcase Shokusuki's type of action because his fighting style I realized that Dudikov wasn't a trained martial artist, but Shokusuki's fighting style is very furious, very hard.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:41

Show is a master in his field, and and we gave him all the tricks that you can uh he's grabbing two two arrows in the air, and with his mouth he grabs another one. So I love it. Yeah, so so to glorify him to shit to show wow, you have here a fighter that is unbelievable. This is the guy, Shokazugi. Yeah, obviously, uh consciously, consciously so, to set up the hero in a big way.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:14

Yeah, of course, yeah, because he he becomes this mythological figure, not not at least when he um just before the climax, you know, he uh he he has this uh this uh button on the wall where his his weapons are in this chest with lights in it, and you know, he had um put this string on his sword, he had promised never to pick up the sword again, you know, the reluctant gunslinger, and he goes to the temple with all his weapons, and you framed the picture like uh this um chandelier, this crown is above his head, almost like a halo.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:51

Yeah, no angle with the curtains and with the wind machines and the wind machines.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:58

Yeah, he he be he becomes more than just a man, he's of course.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:03

Right, absolutely, but this is cinema. The heroes in cinema are almost at the levels of God, they are uh Atlas, you know, they are Atlas, they are Titan, uh, you know, Greek me Greek mythological characters on the screen. He's holding the world on his shoulder. Sure, you know, uh listen, uh this is correct to many, many of uh action heroes in cinema. You take Schwarzenegger, yeah, or you take uh any of the James Bond character, uh people who play James Bond, or uh McQueen uh in in the movie Bullets, or of course, of course.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:44

Yeah, um this is part of the cinema language of absolutely, and it it uh well I guess what I'm just trying to say, it really works with Shokazuki because you already set it up in the beginning. We know how tough he is, and it kind of ramps up all through the movies. We get these hand-to-hand fights, we get the great van, I don't know if it we call the chase, but the van fight, and then it it explodes in an inferno of action on the rooftop. But Sam, I have a uh maybe a little quirky question, but in the beginning of the film, we meet uh we meet Show and we meet his um son uh Kane Kusuki, wasn't yeah, and we we we meet a um very beautiful blonde lady who comes to his uh studio to get some martial arts training. And Sam, I just I'd like to know what happened to her pants.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:52

Number one, we were I'll tell you something. Yeah we were casting in Hollywood, casting, and there was a there was an actress who was supposed to do the part that we found in Hollywood. I don't remember. When I moved to uh Salt Lake City to start a preparation, I was told that she didn't want to do it, or she got another movie, another part, and another movie. So suddenly we didn't have anyone. So Ashley was local from Salt Lake City, and uh why she comes in with no pants, I don't know. Maybe it uh it looks good for the to the wardrobe people, you know. Not all in making a movie, there are so many decisions. Not every decision is a decision of the director. Sometimes there is a makeup, sometimes it's the wardrobe people. I I don't remember why it looks good, it looks good at the moment.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:44

I don't remember why. You know, I I think she she does a wonderful job in this film, and I I think she she actually holds her own when she has this sparring match with show. So I have nothing, it's just the first time you meet her, she's bottomless. I I realize she's wearing uh yeah, she is wearing something on her bottom. Yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah, absolutely. But but it's and I know she's kind of hitting on uh show, but it's just you know, the first time you meet the female kind of love interest, she she's not wearing anything.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:22

Um you know it happens a lot in in it happens a lot in movies. Some decision or some omission, something you don't pay attention on this while filming on the set, and then when you see the movie put together, and sometimes the studio, the director, the the producers, what is this this is crazy. Why didn't you they we did it now? There are instances in the big budget movies, studio, they say, okay, let's go and shoot it again differently. Yeah, they have the budget, they have the time, they have the and you know, through the history of Hollywood, things like this have happened. They change the ending, they change the beginning, they change the um, you know, sometimes they change the actress. Yeah, you know, after even after four or five film uh days of uh weeks of film, they say, Well, she she's or he or she doesn't work, let's shoot all those things together with a new actor or a new actress. But they have the budget, they have the time, the money, which we did not have in the low budget movie. So sometimes there are mistakes that you say, okay, let's go with it. And sometimes those mistakes eventually, like you see many of them in Ninja 3 the domination, they become cult. People love them. Absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:42

Yeah, but I'm I'm I'm actually I'm not suggesting this was a mistake because uh show actually he actually said something. I really don't remember the reason. No, no, but but um I'm I'm guessing, Sam, that it's it has to do what you said, the ingredients of or the expectations of the audience, uh, explosions, action, and something nice to look at. Yeah, if I have to be diplomatic. And I'm guessing that's and it's a fun scene because he said he says, Did you uh did you forget your pants, or you did forget your pants? And she says something like, Oh, I didn't forget, you know, she's flirting with him. It's just it's just one of those funny little things I noticed.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:25

Correct, correct, correct. But I really don't remember 40 years now, more than 40 years. No, fair fair enough. Fair enough.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:34

Um we are 40, so anyway, let's move to the the van fight, which uh is one of the great highlights of this film. Um, and I'm gonna ask you the same thing I asked you about American Ninja. Did uh did Steve Lambert scare you on set with some of his stunts? Very much so.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:02

Listen, I met Steve in the beginning. We had a uh Steve was not the stunt coordinator in the preparation, there was somebody else, I don't remember the name. He was the double of uh uh Bert Reynolds, okay and suddenly yeah, and suddenly there was a movie with Bert Reynolds, so he had to leave. He brought in he brought in Steve Lambert. He said, Listen, I have to leave. This is a good job, it's a studio uh studio movie with good money, I must live. And I will bring somebody good. And he brought in uh Steve Lambert, introduced to me Steve Lambert, and we started to work together, Steve and me. And uh, you know, in the beginning we were working on storyboards and ideas, but one thing I realized about Steve uh that he was very brave and very crazy. Now I I encouraged him. It's not that you know, I told my stunt uh the stunt crew and I told Steve, Steve, you because he always you Steve used to say all the time, you know, low budget, can I do this? Can I do that? I said, Steve, don't worry about low budget. You come up with ideas. If somebody has to go and fight with the uh producers for uh uh money, more money, let me, I will do the fighting. You don't worry, you just come up with ideas, come up with ideas. So he came up with crazy ideas. Perhaps, maybe at the time I was too naive to understand that some of the stunts were very, very dangerous. I must say, we didn't have any injury, nothing wrong happened in the movie. But Revenge of the Ninja, he had to cross between two buildings with a slide to life, and he had to break to the window into the next building. Because of because he had to break to the window, he told me he cannot have a safety device because he has to break the glass and let go of this uh thing. And uh so he did it, and he we were like 20 stories high. It was crazy. I I I I don't think today I would think about it, I would think about other ways to do it uh cinematically. But at the time, that's what we did. He crossed, Steve crossed between the two buildings, let go, broke the glass, you know, not real glass, of course, you know, special glass, and he landed in the in the in the room of of the other building. This was one of his ideas. Now, actually, the van sequence is not dangerous, not very dangerous, as as as other things, but we had to build it very carefully. We knew we knew that we wanted we wanted to create a exciting chase or car chase or something with cars, something with a car. So the the idea of a van came in that they are escaping in a van. Uh maybe it was uh Steve's idea that we need a van so we can do stuff on the roof of the van, so it will be a little bit bigger. And then uh all of this, and uh there is a storyboard. I have the storyboard, all every section of this uh chase, and it took uh four or five days, six days to to film it, with him uh on the ground and being dragged by the car, uh and accidents and near misses, etc. But um it was done in small sections, in in uh so it was of course there is a danger element in everything, you know. If somebody if a car is running and somebody is running in the roof, and then in a separate shield, he he flips over and breaks the glass, the windshield, and goes in. There is a some element of danger here. An accident might happen. We were lucky, nothing happened to us, nothing, no accident, but it might be. It uh it is a dangerous stuff, and and but if we're careful and we do everything with safety and with safety devices, it was good. Um so we were either too naive, yeah. Sorry, we were either too young, too naive, or too stupid to execute all of this, and uh, it's exciting on the screen to create some excitement on the screen. That that's that's the goal.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:13

This is our goal. Yep, and and you most definitely succeeded also because uh one of the things that that Martin and I often I don't I don't know if I want to say complain about, but there's just a difference between when you see people have done something physical like Lambert did, and you see if it's done on a green screen, it feels different. And I know uh Steve Lambert was very capable and he was very confident in his abilities. And we all we also talked about that uh when we talked about American Ninja, where he held on to the helicopter again without cables. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:58

And when he was on Steve was very brave, but but the uh but different sections of it's not everything, not everything is Steve. Different sections are like let's say when we needed flips, we brought in gymnasts, professional gymnasts. And uh sometime it was the uh we needed uh some of uh uh Shokatsugi assistants. He he show was always surrounded by six to eight people who are very capable martial artists, so sometimes we needed them. So for certain things we needed certain experts, you know, motorcycle expert. We had motorcycle experts for for everything we needed uh an expert. Uh, but again, I'm saying Steve knew how to coordinate. Steve had a good imagination, very good imagination, and he was very brave, very, very, very brave. He did stuff that many people would not do, but but usually you you meet most of stunt people are doing uh interesting stuff. Most of stunt people.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:03

Definitely. I I know you've you've told this story before the last time we spoke, but I I I just I would would you mind again telling about Steve's motorcycle stunt in on American Ninja?

SPEAKER_02 1:31:20

Yeah, you see, in when we did the Ninja 3D domination, there is a few motorcycle stunts. Yeah, he he brought in expert, uh Robbie Cannibal, the son of Evil Cannibal. Oh, yeah. He was yeah, he was one, you know, there is a motorcycle rolling over on the golf course. That's Robbie. And there we had two motorcycle experts. They only do motorcycle stunt. That's Hollywood. In Hollywood, you find for everything, you find somebody who is expert. Yeah, and uh so now we are in the Philippines, and this is not in the script, but we had an idea that uh Michael goes out of the Joe Armstrong going to get out of the base, driving, uh taking the motorcycle. The motorcycle was not in the script, the motorcycle was an idea of the art director, uh Adrian Gordon. One day when we are filming, and uh Adrian came to me and said, A new motorcycle came out. The name of the motorcycle is the ninja. Oh, it's a new, new, new motorcycle. We must put it in the movie. I said, I told him Adrian, it's not it's not in the script. Never mind, forget it. He said, No, we must. He insisted. I said, Adrian, where are we going to find a motorcycle that just we are in the Philippines? A motorcycle that just came out last month. He said, No problem, Hong Kong. Hong Kong is like one hour from uh across the bay from uh Philippines. He said, In Hong Kong, I will find everything because that's everything is there. So finally I gave up, and the producer said, Okay, how much it will cost, and we okay, it was in the budget. So he bought the motor this motorcycle in Hong Kong, it was shipped, came overnight to the Philippines. So, anyway, so then came the idea. Okay, now we have the motorcycle ninja. Let Michael will take it over the fence to escape from the and uh now we have to look for a motorcycle expert, stunt, stunt motorcycle expert. So we uh Steve and his people, production people started to inquire in the Philippine, and they say, Okay, we have a guy, he's a motorcycle expert, stunt man, blah blah blah, whatever. In every country, you will find some people who know they know how to do tricks with motorcycle. So we built the ramp. There was a ramp built, and and the street on the other side of the wall was lower than the base. The military base was like this, the street was like this. So he had to take the motorcycle, go over. We didn't have this. Is not the fast of the furious, we don't have blue screen, we don't we had to do it physically and go over the fence, go up the ramp, over the fence, and land on the street. So the first guy came, and you know, okay, he's checking the ramp and everything in distance and rehearsal. You know, he's not going over rehearsal. Okay, he's ready. We gave him the uniform, Michael Ludikov, the wig. Yeah, go. He goes with the motorcycle, he went to the end of the ramp and he stopped. He didn't have the courage to take the motorcycle over. So, you know, meantime, we are losing time. This is time and uh schedule. He he the he gave up on it. So he said the Filipinos say, Okay, we have another guy, we'll bring the another guy. So another day, now we have to schedule again the same stunt, another day, and the other guy the exactly the same story rehearsal, checking, everything came to the edge of the ramp. Stop. He didn't have he was not brave enough to take it over. So at this point, Steve was already he was embarrassed and he was impatient. And he said, and Steve said, Okay, I will do it, move. So I said, Steve, you're you're not an expert of motorcycles, you know. This is not your expertise. So that's that's how Steve was very brave, and he was very athletic, very agile. His body was like a like a rubber, like marionette. His body, he was trained, he was very good. He said, Never mind, I will do it, I know how to do it. Give me the uniform, give me the wig. He looked at it, look at the distance one time. Woo! He went over the wall, landed on the other side. No rehearsals, nothing. This this was Steve. He he was very, very brave, and he understood the the mechanic, he understood the physics of everything. He knew he took the car into the lake in in Ninja 3 the domination. He jumped from the palm tree to the helicopter in Ninja 3 the domination. He jumped from the helicopter to the to the water in the ninja three. So he understood the physics, the distances, he he had this good sense for for to to uh create and execute stunts very well.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:05

Yeah, and I I also get the sense also uh after reading his autobiography, that he he felt a great sense of responsibility. For example, like you said, if he had brought someone in and they didn't deliver, he felt he felt very bad. So, you know, um then I'll do it. And that's it seems like that's the kind of guy.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:28

Yeah, but here in Hollywood in America, it's not a problem. You bring an expert, the expert knows what to do. We were stuck over there in the Philippines, we didn't have the uh the right people in in South Africa was the situation was much better with the stunt people in South Africa, but in the Philippines and Indonesia, not at all.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:51

No, and the amazing thing is that you really see the impact on in American Ninja, you see the impact when he hits the street on the other side and his he he he almost takes a bite out of the windshield and he hits his face on the on the gas tank. It's uh he he look it for a normal man that surely would have hurt.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:20

He was athletic, he was very, very, very athletic, very trained. Yeah, he landed on uh on hay motorcycle.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:30

Um during your audio commentary for Revenge of the Ninja, and I guess you already spoke about this, but you uh called Revenge of the Ninja a movie for the for the boys. I'm guessing that's what when you spoke about the uh the ingredients of the action movie and who the audience for the action movie is. So I guess I'm guessing we're the boys. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:01

Listen, a movie has a target audience, usually. Yeah, you you might go to the wrong movie. Uh my wife will only go to comedies, she doesn't go to any other movie, only comedy. So there is a target audience to movies, you know. There are uh billions of people in the world, millions and billions of people. Not everybody likes the same type of entertainment. Some people uh they like football, some people like basketball. It's natural. So there is a target audience for certain genres of movies, definitely. And and uh those movies, Revenge of the Ninja, America Ninja, are made for a certain type of people that I've just mentioned. It's usually the boys, you know, the starting at 12 years old. But I heard about people who saw those movies when they were eight years old, even. But uh and and uh growing up and and other people, and certainly to the people who love martial art, the martial art uh crowd. So there is a target audience, there is a specific audience that you as a filmmaker have to keep in mind to satisfy this audience that you are making the movie for.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:14

Now, um during the movie we're introduced to Keith Vitali. Vitali, I'm not sure how to say his name. Yeah, and um at a certain point he uh recruits show and they go to the park where they meet this. I I've chosen to call them a gang, I don't really know what we should call them, but one of them is Steve Lambert in a great costume and with a great fake mustache. Uh can you can you tell us a little bit about how that fight was staged and how these cast of characters, the c the costumes, the way they um act. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

SPEAKER_02 1:40:02

So this was an idea in in the script that uh they have to go and investigate and find out some information, uh showing uh Kit Vaitali together. And it was generally idea with between Sho Kazugi and Steve Lambert. Let's we are going to a park and let's have fun. Let's uh some kind of fun. So we'll find we'll find four different types of fighters. One of them was a wrestler, one of them was really a professional wrestler, one of the four. He was from Salt Lake City, a wrestler from Sun Lake City. The other one is martial artists. So I don't know how I who came with the idea that Steve will look like a cowboy, I do not remember. Maybe he liked it, maybe it was his idea. But the idea was that the Chokazugi will take out a knife and will be able to cut half of his mustache with a knife. So this this was uh specifically done for comedy. Yeah, there was a few more bits that which are not did not end up. There were other comedy action comedy bits, but of course, all of this is borrowed from uh Hong Kong movies, you know. This is nothing, it's not so so original. When you see a lot of the Hong Kong martial art movies, they always have the comedy fight and they have the clown, and the so it's more or less borrowed from Hong Kong movies. This this whole sequence. Uh, you you will find it in almost every martial art uh uh Hong Kong movie, you'll find the comedy fight, the comedy bit. So Sho sorry, Sho wanted to do something similar. Yeah, so that's how we ended up with this group and how with the all kind of comical beat. There are two more, but which are out of the movie. You can see in the background there was a guy with a big beard like this with a with a coat. There was also a fight with him, but for some reason I don't remember why it's it's not in the final edit.

SPEAKER_03 1:42:10

It's probably not something you thought about at the time, but um one of the uh henchmen is uh the um stuntman actor Don Shanks, who uh who's uh the chief the Indian. And then you have a a cowboy played by Steve Lambert. And I can't stop thinking uh did you think about village people when you uh brought in these uh we did not, but later it's uh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:39

Uh the Indian he was the assistant stand coordinator. He worked with Steve together. Uh uh because every stand coordinator needs uh assistant, so he was the he was every day on the set. Uh very Don Chank, very nice guy, very nice guy, and he was without uh and and uh I'll tell you, he saved uh uh Steve was crazy, and sometimes he was ready to do stuff that were really dangerous, and always it was Dan who stopped him. He said, Wait a minute, let's think about it, let's build it better. The cable has to be longer, the cable has to be stronger. In many instances, Don Shank saved saved Lambert from injury. I remember.

SPEAKER_03 1:43:23

Not one time, more than one time. Steve mentioned uh, for example, you you you mentioned the uh the cable stunt where you had to cross between two buildings. Uh and Steve mentioned uh that um uh stunt that you're running out of time, so I'll just do it. Where Don said we have to test with the bags first.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:47

Yeah, Don stopped him. Don stopped him, and we and he reminded him there is a rule you send back four times the weight of the stunt man, and the cable broke. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:01

So we had to reschedule it for another day. But you're saying there was no village people influence. No, I I don't think not at the time.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:11

Listen, maybe the wardrobe ladies were making jokes and fun of us. I it was not my decision. No, no, okay, but maybe sometimes there are there are things behind the scene. The director, as I mentioned, the director is very busy. Yeah, absolutely. Other artists in the crew, they they they make jokes and they make fun and they they make so maybe the wardrobe ladies uh there were we had two wardrobe ladies in the in the set, and maybe they came up with this idea that everyone looked that they will look like the village people. Maybe I don't not my decision later on. When I when we saw it in the editing, maybe later on I realized that uh it is so, but at the time, everyone has a uh it the reason was that every one of them has a different style of fighting. This was the idea. One of them was the wrestler, one of them was the cowboy, they have a different style of fight.

SPEAKER_03 1:45:10

This was the main idea. But one of the things you you mentioned earlier in our conversation was that these things are also part of what makes it kind of a cult movie, so yeah, yeah, yeah. Conscious or not, there is uh village people vibe, and it's one of the things that makes this film great.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:33

Uh those kind of things nowadays everybody's talking about this scene. Back then, we didn't know if it will work, it will not work. Sho wanted to use the knife. This was the the knife with a fan. He wanted to use, but you see this, you see, in every in many Hong Kong movies, you see the knife with a fan. It's not an original idea, you know. So he really wanted to, so yeah, we have to come with the movie. You cannot be boring, you have to come up with different ideas. You have 90 minutes to to to surprise the audience. So Shaw really wanted to use this special knife, which was also a fan. So they build the whole gag around this between Steve and him, it's all around the fan. Yeah, about the the the knife, the fan that becomes a knife, yeah, yeah. And cutting off half the mustache. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:46:26

So this was already the comedy that came with it. Absolutely. Um I think just for for time's sake, we better skip to Ninja Free. Okay, that's what you need.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:41

Yeah, we're almost almost two hours. Just say when you think uh I can't handle anymore.

SPEAKER_05 1:46:51

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:52

Whenever you had enough, Sam, we'll uh say thank you and have a very interesting poster of American Ninja. Uh the Danish poster. Oh, this is the Danish poster? Yeah. Yeah. I I ne I've never seen it in a big poster. I saw this graphic, but in a small uh on a on a DVD or something. But uh the American Ninja poster is different, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:47:20

Yeah, it's uh it's different from country to country.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:23

Of course, of course. It's it's up to the this it's up to the distributor, of course. Yeah, but this is exciting. This is like a lot of action in this poster.

SPEAKER_03 1:47:33

Yeah, it it it's it it uh it's one of the reasons why I love it. And also uh you can't tell because it's very small, but under American Ninja it says uh Ninja 4 because it was called that in certain territories.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:48

Uh-huh. Oh, yeah, but after three ninjas, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:47:53

It kind of makes sense. Yeah. But but but anyway, uh Sam, whenever you uh you've had enough, just uh say when and we'll uh say thank you for the day.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:03

We should stop in the at the end of the hour. Okay?

SPEAKER_03 1:48:06

Fair enough. Um but anyway, Ninja Free, the domination. Um we talked a little bit a bit about uh how to start an action movie, uh, and you really go for broke in this one. It's an action and stunt spectacle. Um one of the things you talked about on the audio commentary was um uh you didn't need uh that Menachem had said something along the lines that uh you we don't need big stars on this in this film, the name Ninja will sell the movie. Uh which I also um it's a very even though it has many of the same trademarks of the other ninja movies, um one of the things one of the reasons why it's so well remembered and loved and is a cult movie today is because it goes in a different direction. Um you mentioned polargeist, you mentioned the exorcist. Um did you have any say on um going in this direction?

SPEAKER_02 1:49:25

Totally, totally. Uh this is a story, I'll tell you the story, it's interesting. Uh when we finished Revenge of the Ninja, it was a big success for a company, for a small company like Canon. This was a very big success. Canon could never sell a movie to a major distribution comp uh company before. They made they made many movies before, they couldn't sell it to uh and sudden and finally MGM picked up Revenge of the Ninja. MGM was the first time that Canon had a good relationship with major Hollywood company, distribution company. And and uh uh MGM distributed Revenge of the Ninja, 800 Prince, uh Western America, and it was successful all over the world. So they wanted to make a sequel. Obviously, they make money, canon makes money, she wanted, they want to make more money. This is Hollywood. So, but you know, Shokasugi had a deal with Kenon. I I was not involved, I had nothing to do with the deal, deal that they make a commercial deal. He was not only the star of the movie, he was also uh he was supplying the wardrobe, the ninja, he was supplying all the weapons. He had a bigger deal with Kenon. And uh something happened between them. I don't know, I was not involved. Some something happened in the relationship between Shokasugi and Menachem Golan and Kenan. So when Menachem Golan calls me in, you know, as I as I told you, Revenge of the Ninja was a pretty good pretty good uh success for a small company independent. And they wanted to do immediately another one. And uh, but he told me right away, he said, but this time Shokasugi is not going to be the hero of the movie, I want to build it in another way. Uh, and for some reason we decided that it's not a bad idea to have a female lead. It's it's because of the movie Aliens, because of Sigonia Weaver. At the time it was popular, you know, because of Sigonia Weaver. You know, it became uh okay, you can have a so maybe Menachem Golan thought that it's a good commercial angle. It will sell good because of Alien, because of Sigonia Weaver. So it was okay. Okay, so there was no script, there was nothing. Jim Seal in the room, and I and Menachem Golan. And they say, okay, let's do something with a woman, with a female, with the actress. And uh so we had an idea or two, and we had to present it to Shokazugi because he is the he's still in the movie. Somehow we had to integrate him in the move in the story. So uh Shaw was not uh happy with this decision. Of course, I don't know what again, I don't know his relationship with canon, I don't know. He was not happy, and he was not happy with the fact that it will be a woman ninja, and he told us something that the ninja will not sell, a woman ninja will not sell, and uh and uh she doesn't have the power and the strength to be a ninja. He was right, by the way. Uh, the ninja, the revenge of the uh ninja three was not as successful in the box office as the revenge of the ninja. So we had to come up with an idea that Shokasugi will accept to make this movie, and it was between the writer Jim Silk and me. And at the time, as you mentioned, I was influenced by poltergeist, I was influenced by uh uh uh Exorcist, and also the the movie with the what's her name, with Bale, she's the dance movie. Oh flash dance flash dance, flash dance dance, and flash dance was a big success, and uh aliens, all of this together. Okay, so here, boom, suddenly we had an idea. She's not a ninja, she's possessed by a spirit, poltergeist. You know, it's poltergeist, it's uh exorcism. She's possessed by a spirit of a real ninja, which gives her the power to be a ninja, and uh Shokasugi accepted it that he will have to fight, not her, he eventually at the end, he will have to fight a real ninja, a real villa. So here we started from this point in the script. As I told you, Jim Silk was very we were thinking the same way, we were very working together, and we came up with a structure. Of course, he wrote the script, I did not write the script, and we came up with this structure. Since we started with it, I was carried away. I said, okay, I like genres, all kinds of genres of movies. Let's do a little bit of dance and let's do a little bit of uh possession, little bit poltergeist. Why not? And if we go for it, let's go for it. Let's have a scene that they're going to the magician and trying to the exorcist and trying to get her spirit out of her body, and uh let's do something that uh you know that the spirit lives in the closet. That's why I told you that the whole set was tilting, yeah, yeah, to suck everything goes to the closet. There is a scene that everything moves to the closet. We had to tilt the entire room, and and so I was instrumental in encouraging Steve uh uh Jim Silk to write more and more crazy, and he was like me. He was he Jim is crazy like me. So together we developed we kept developing this whole idea that uh uh there is a supernatural, and anyway, it goes good with ninja. Ninjas ninjas goes with mystery. You cannot make you know, ninja is not private eye, ninja is not uh you know, I can't just yeah, it's not the Meltas Falcon, it's not James Bond. It has to go with a lot of mysticism and mystery, and we kept it in American Ninja, we kept it in the Revenge of the Ninja, the mysticism, the mystery. But here in this movie particular, we went crazy. And and uh and we cut the movie, we we finished editing, etc. Shoka Sugi again. I say he was right, the movie was not as successful in the box office, but with the years, 35 years later, it became a crowd craze. It's it's being screened in festivals, it's being has screenings. I I just saw it in uh San Diego. There was a screening in San Diego. I was invited to uh uh QA. Everybody is asking about the VA juice, every place I go in the world, every place I go in the world. First question for the audience: what is the deal with the VA juice?

SPEAKER_03 1:56:07

Sam, would you believe that's one of the questions I have on my paper?

SPEAKER_02 1:56:11

I I know already the question because every place I go in the world, they're asking me about this. Could you explain the Dennis and Martin? I was I went to uh a year ago from now, exactly a year ago from now, I went to Dallas, Texas, Denton, Texas, for a screening of uh the first screening we had of this after we found the print. Yeah, so there was in Denton, it's a small town north of Dallas, and they had a black film festival. So we were invited with this. So they they you know, they send me a ticket and a hotel room. I come to the hotel room in the reception. It's already night, it's eight o'clock already. By the time I arrived to the airplane, by the time I arrived to the hotel by myself, nobody wouldn't, nobody, they just told me to go to this hotel. Nobody came with me. I arrive in the reception, and there is a young guy, you know, late at night, already eight o'clock. You have the some student or somebody, and he's registering me, etc. I said, I want to give you a few things. He gives me a bag of chips and he gave me juice. It's a can of VA juice. I didn't pay any attention to this. He put it in the bag, he he takes everything. He said, I put it in the bag. I take the bag, I go to her, he stops me. This young guy he stops me. He said, Hey, Mr. Furstenberg, one minute. I turned around back. He said, Did you notice what kind of juice I gave you? He said, Wait a second, I opened the bag. I I told him, You're a genius. I I didn't notice, but it clicked, you know. I was there for completely another movie. Completely another movie. But yeah, he purposely he went and it was not part of the hotel. He went in the morning, he bought it, he brought it because he knew he saw it in the register that I'm coming, and he knew it. So, yes, so this question came up every place in the world.

SPEAKER_03 1:58:16

But am I correct in assuming that the idea of incorporating the V8 use was in fact your idea? No, it was an accident.

SPEAKER_02 1:58:28

No, not at all. You know, in every movie, many movies, there is something which is called product placement. Yeah, so let's say some yeah, product placement. Let's say Coca-Cola makes a deal with the movie, low budget movie. I'm not talking about James Bond. If you show a Mustang in James Bond, the company gets five million dollars from uh four. But in small movies, they will say, Okay, if you can show this product, you know, uh watch or something, we will give you no money, but you can get a lot of this product, give it to the crew, gift. Yeah, so it had nothing to do with the director. Usually it's the art department, the probe department. I don't know who's dealing with, so it's a little bit helping financially. So in this uh instant, we had they probably made a uh uh deal with the company that makes uh drinking beverage that also had VA juice and other. So on the set, we always had mountains of uh of VA juice, you know, stuck. Anybody can go drink whatever, but we were obligated to show it one time. So the profsman reminded me when we were there in her house in this scene, the prop and said, Listen, let's put it in the in the table because we're obligated to show it one time. Okay, so I say put it on the table, okay, fine, no problem. And then we started to build, we started to build the the scene between Lucinda and Jordan Bennett. Yeah, and and somebody Jordan thinks that it was his idea. I cannot remember. Jordan Bennett. And he said, and he they came to me and said, Why? Because in the movie she is a health, she's an instructor, and she is into so she will not drink alcohol. This is her character, she will not drink alcohol. So, you know, instead of having drinking champagne or drinking some alcoholic drink, somebody came up with the idea. Why don't she she's a she drinks VA juice, uh vegetable juice, and let's use it, and then we develop through rehearsal, and you know, Jordan and Lucinda, and she will uh pour it on her end, he has to lick it from her chest, and it was developed, but I agree to it. Yes. I told for some reason I said this movie is so crazy. We are doing we are making such a crazy movie, this is nothing compared to the other crazy stuff that we're looking into. Let's go for it, let's use the VA juice. It it sounds good to me. So it was not my idea, but I agree to it. Fair enough.

SPEAKER_03 2:01:09

Um you you touched a little bit. It was almost an accident because it was there. Okay. Um my last question then, because uh we don't want to take up too much of your time, but you mentioned just a little bit about um Shokosuki possibly having some kind of a falling out with Menachem or a disagreement with him. Yeah. What was that something you could could you feel that on set? Was he disappointed that he was being relegated to being a co-star rather than the main star?

SPEAKER_02 2:01:45

Definitely, you know, in in uh in Revenge of the Ninja, Shokasugi was the king, he was the spirit behind the movie, he was the sensei, he was there, and the master always had eight students around him, also in uh Ninja 3, of course. But uh, you know, he was in charge of all the choreography of all the martial art. I did not get involved, I don't know martial art. I respected him for doing the martial art, and he was kind of the Hancho, he was the sensor. He he was in charge of the martial art of the movie, and uh he had to train somebody, he had to show somebody some move, he did everything. When we got to uh revenge of uh Ninja 3, first number one, he was not on the set every day because we didn't need him every day. So for the martial art part, uh we had Ellen Amiel. Ellen Amiel was his assistant, and Ellen was on the set every day with the group, with the because we had to show Lucinda what to do. Lucinda was a dancer, she's not a martial artist, so she was good because she was a dancer, she picked up the moves very quickly, but uh Shaw was not talking with Lucinda on the set ever. It was the job of Ellen. Ellen Ariel was in charge, he was training her and showing her what to do and all the martial art moves, and uh and yeah, when he was when he came in, he was very reserved. And I'll tell you something about the ending of the movie. Uh, you know, he comes to the temple at the end of the movie, and uh the real ninja comes back to life, the she is not a ninja anymore. And uh I always felt that with the killing of the ninja, she had Lucinda needs to be part of it somehow because she was victimized, her body, he took her body, so she needs to be involved from a drama point of view. Show did not agree with this, he didn't want to know she. So I said, I you know, in my brain, I said, How do how do we do it in a way that he kills the ninja, but she's still involved, something she's involved, and uh you know, we went out from the temple, so we the fight starts in the temple and then it goes to the hills. The hills are already in Los Angeles. We couldn't find something exciting in uh in uh Phoenix. Phoenix is very flat, so we decided to move it, and and uh all the scenes between Shokasugi and the bad ninja, Davy Chung, or whoever was the double, were filmed without Lucinda and without Jordan. We spent four or five days doing everything with the rotation and killing him and stabbing him in the skull and everything. And then one day after we finished everything, I brought we brought in Lucinda and uh Jordan, and there was a double for the two the Shokazuges, the two ninjas, and she picks up the sword and she runs and she stabs him. They never show and Lucinda were never on the set together. Never, it was done totally separate because of this. But but he has a fight with her in the building, in the abandoned building. Yeah, you know, most of it is Steve Lambert because she's covered, but there is a point that he's taking off her, and and uh so uh you know we worked, but of course, of course, he was disappointed that he's not it's not a story about Shokasugi anymore, uh the same character that was in uh Revenge of the Ninja. I could feel it. I I don't think we spoke about it, but uh felt it and uh rightfully so. Then uh after this he left Canon, he moved to work with other companies. He did not work with Canon anymore.

SPEAKER_03 2:05:45

So I believe it he was it was it nine deaths of the ninja or something along those lines he made afterwards with Moshe Diamond with another company. Uh yeah I forgot the name of the company. Yeah, me too, but uh anyway. Shokazuki walked into the sunset, and it's just about time we do the same. But Sam, again, thank you so very much for your stories and for your time. It's so very uh gracious of you, and we love uh talking to you.

SPEAKER_02 2:06:27

Yeah, I'm always happy to to talk with you guys and to to to tell stories to the fans and to your listeners. Uh are you going to make a podcast out of it and uh post it?

SPEAKER_03 2:06:38

Let me know. Yeah, and and because it seems like we had a pretty good connection today. Last last time it it lacked quite a bit. So I'm I think uh if if it's okay with you, we've recorded this uh video as well. Uh we'll put that on our YouTube channel as well, and you can link to that too.

SPEAKER_02 2:06:57

No, you do whatever you need to do and let me know. I can help you promote it a little bit. Uh if you need uh I let me know if you need photos, uh stills from the movies to incorporate. I don't know if you're editing it and you want to incorporate photos. I can send you a link in the email. Yeah, you're interested. Perfect. I'll send you a link to that would be amazing. Yeah, but to the box, and you can uh yeah, yeah, yes, to do box.

SPEAKER_01 2:07:24

And there's also uh a last thing because we wanted to start our introduction at the sci-fi con the conference, where you say hello. And I'm not saying that you should do it now if you're tired, but if you wanted to if you have me in the no, if you have me, I can I'll do it.

SPEAKER_02 2:07:42

But what do you want to say? Hello to all the participants of the yeah, you just say hello sci-fi con. What is the name of the sci-fi con.

SPEAKER_01 2:07:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:07:55

Uh so uh uh just hello everybody. My name is Sam Fersenberg.

SPEAKER_01 2:08:02

Yeah, and tell who you are, and uh you worked on Canon films and you did American Ninja and the Revenge films, and and you're all welcome to sci-fi con. Yeah, something like that. That would be amazing, yeah. That would be amazing, and we will just be here in the background, or you can just do it when you're ready or fill it or send it on to me or just just when you have time.

SPEAKER_02 2:08:26

No, I can do it right now if you want. No, but we can do it now. Okay. Hello, all of you guests and visitors to the sci-fi con. My name is Sam Furstenberg, and I'm director of such movies like Revenge of the Ninja, Ninja 3 The Domination, American Ninja, American Ninja Number 2, as well as Avenging Force, and you will be surprised. Breaking to Electric Boogaloo. And I want to welcome all of you to the sci-fi con. Enjoy it and have a great time. Thank you and adios.

SPEAKER_03 2:09:10

Nothing short of perfect, Mr. Furstenberg. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:09:19

That was amazing.

SPEAKER_03 2:09:21

We we'll let you get back to it.

SPEAKER_02 2:09:23

Maybe we will talk again and I'll send you a link to the photos. Thank you very much. Okay, thank you guys. Let me know, I will help you to promote the video. Yes. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_00 2:09:38

Thank you very much. See you.

SPEAKER_03 2:09:43

Her fik I så vores interview med Sam. To timer. Temlig for usøb. Så altid, vi synes, han var enormt. Dagmilde morsom venlig rakt. Der kan ikke sige sådan nok godt om den mand. Vi håber, at I sat pris på det her lille særsligt. Jeg synes, i hvert fald, det er jo fantastisk at lave det. Så altid skal I have tak med i, fordi I var med på en nytt. Vi sætter virkelig pris på det. Vi sætter virkelig pris på jer. I kan jo finde os på de sociale medier. Vi hedder Film Federer in på Facebook, vi hedder filmfædre SAC, ind på Instagram, og hvor jeg i fædrer er af i filmfæder Smacy. I kan finde os på alle podcast tjenester. Og under episodbeskrivelsen af vores afsnit. Der er der en linje, hvor der står smidigt beskæved, hvis du trykker på den, så skriver du direkte til os. I må altid gerne kontakte osen det en eller andet, vi synes, det er mega fedt at høre fra jer. Men igen, tak fordi I er derude. Vi ses.